Religion Talk shoot off

Sami's intro had a discussion of religion beginning. I thought the discussion might end up being a good one but that was not the right place for it so I am going to move it here.

Ok well I should have done it different but didn't know until afterwards...

Anyways so far Terra asked Sami what she believed, she said she was agnostic because she couldn't believe in something that would mean burning forever. Then Raker responded saying christian(s) are open to more now.

To Sami - That is probably one of the more honest answers I have ever heard someone give when saying why they don't believe in anything. The flip side to that for me is the opportunity to exist in a situation where there is absolutely nothing negative, and the hope of that is what keeps people going.

To Raker - Tolerance or openness is not necessarily a good thing. Acceptance is always a good thing. I believe that all people struggle with different crap, and no one's struggles are any 'worse' than another's. The results may be more obvious and painful, but the actual giving in to the temptations are all equal. In God's eyes, a person who lied to their parents about which movie they were seeing is just as seperated from Him as someone who killed their parents. Obviously the mortal consequences of their actions are not the same, but the eternal consequences are. Tolerance is when we tell the alcoholic that being drunk all the time is OK as long as he Loves Jesus. Acceptance is telling the alcoholic that it is NOT ok to be drunk all the time, but that Jesus loves him anyhow and so do we.

BTW - I am a Christian. I believe that Christ was the perfect Son of God and his salvation is mandatory in order to spend eternity removed from all suffering. I am not perfect. I screw up every day, maybe not as 'big' as others, but the mortal idea of one sin being bigger than another is irrelevant in the big picture. I usually try to not give in to temptations but I often do, and sometimes I don't even try not to. But through it all I believe Christ has forgiven me and I move on.

Well Im on the fence as far as religion goes. I think I disobeyed almost all the commandments with the exception of killing somebody unless video games count ha ha. I have accidently stoled something when somebody put something in my bag without me noticing. I have on occasions told a lie or two or three billion, kind of have to most people dont like to hear the truth about somethings. I have on a lot on a few occasions atleast twice that I know of slept with married women at the time I did not know they were married. I really dont feel like going over the commandments but Im pretty sure I have broken them some way or some how.

Certain things about some religions make no fucking sense to me at all. Take catholism, lets see If I murder somebody and confess my sins and am genuine in repent it is forgiven. However if I take a cult 45 and blow my brains out I am eternally damned. So its okay for me to be a serial killer? but if I commit suicide I go to hell does that sound fair to anybody?

Or Mormanism the church of Jesus Christ one of there religious rules among some really stupid ones like you cant drink coffee is you cant drink alcohol. Remember they are the church of Jesus Christ yet if you read the passeges in the bible Jesus turned water into wine, which means Jesus Christ himself says its okay to drink Alcohol once in while yet the church of Jesus christ forbids it. That make any sense?

Those are just two examples I could go on and on about religious foot in mouth disease. Crucible ring a bell or the Holy Crusades so much blood is spilled in the name of God it almost turns your stomach and the sad thing is its not over we humans will only continue on killing in the name of our god bullshit. Besides if you read ancient history it just seems like some of these religions copy each other Take the story of Jesus Christ does it not seem like a different spin of Greek Mytheology?

I personally have no problem with religion at all, and that goes for all religions. A person is entitled to believe anything they choose, that comes with having free will.

I just don't think its fair that someone like me who doesn't do shit to hurt other people can be damned to burn in hell for eternity because I'm attracted to the "wrong" group of people.. That in my opinion isn't Just and loving as God is supposed to be.

If all people are created in his image, why do we deserve to suffer for something we cant control?


Also, there is a difference between agnosticism and atheism for those who don't seem to understand this.

Agnosticism is the uncertainty of the existence of a god or other supreme being. Me being agnostic does NOT mean I do not believe in any higher power, it simply means that I dont attach myself to any specific religion, yet also dont claim to be smart enough to say that all religion is false

Bad - because you are discussing the commandments I will speak from a biblical perspective. the assumption is that you believe the Bible to be an honest text spoken from God. With that said, the commandments were Old Testament rules. They were set down before Christ and if you broke a commandment there were certain sacrifices that you had ot make to atone for your sins. When Christ came he basically took the place of ALL of those sacrifices for the rest of time. So basically instead of killing a butt load of sheep, God gave us his son and if we believe AND repent then we are free of our sin. It doesn't matter what or how many. I won't mess with the catholicism and mormon stuff cuz I am not educated in such things. It isn't about being perfect, its about caring and trying and screwing up and being sorry.

Sami - sorry for the confusion on atheism and agnosticism, I knew what you meant just didn't convey that in my response very well. To me you being attracted to members of the same sex may not be your choice, but choosing to act on it is your choice. That is where the 'wrong doing' or 'sin' comes in to play. Just like being an alcoholic isn't a sin, but them giving into the temptation is. Or giving in to the temptation of porn or drugs or lying. The temptation isnt the sin, acting on it is. The bottom line is that God created us in his image, and we can choose whether we decide to live that image or not. But like i said before we are going to screw it up, thats the whole point of Christ. As far as Just and Fairness, if we were punished for being tempted that would not be fair or just, but because we are punished for acting on those things and He also offers us salvation, i would consider it to be very just. I won't give you the BS answer of God's justice and fairness is beyond our comprehension because that pisses me off.

what im saying its that being gay is not a choice, and acting on sexual urges is human nature.. If acting on human nature is a sin, than that is just unfair... I dont deserve to suffer forever because I dont discriminate who i have feelings for.

also, where in religion does it say that being gay is worthy of eternal suffering... pretty sure that wasnt in the bible..

yes but if human nature is corrupt then acting on it can be wrong. I won't argue whether or not being gay is a choice because to me its not important how you got there. and its not any different to me than drinking too much.

Romans 1:26-27: 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Again please do not take this as all gay people are going to hell...that is a specific scripture relating to homosexuality, there are others about murderers, liars, drunks, etc. You asked for an example and I gave u one. This passage is in the middle of several things talking about God's wratch on people for their various wicked behaviors.

Again if you subscribe to the Christian faith as laid out in the Bible then the understanding is that in the beginning Man was created perfect and then fell from that perfect state. This first sin seperated us forever from the perfect, pain free world that is God's. Therefore we all deserve this seperation/suffering/punishment whatever you want to call it. The only way to pay this debt is to take Christ as your savior and accept his willingness to pay that debt.

For me its not about, well bad things happen to what i consider good people so a God that would punish good people is not my kind of God. For me it is about, this world is really Effed up, and we did it to ourselves with or without help from Satan. I don't want to spend eternity in this place or in any place worse than this, and for me the hope that there could be a place without all of the evil, sadness and pain is absolutely worth believing in. I believe that without God's grace and mercy every single one of us would be spending enternity in hell. I also believe that with that same grace and mercy every single one of us can spend eternity in Heaven. It is our choice and it is not easy all the time especially when it means changing things about your life that you have always done or that you have always considered okay.

Most of you will probably disagree with this, but ive held it in for a bit too long. Religion is bullshit, people use it as a means of control and at a government level it has caused far too many problems. One of the largest is stem cell research, my mom has MS, and her quality of life could improve if there was a breakthrough in stem cell research, but religion gets in the way (so much for separation of church and state) if Bush had any morals, or values then there might have been hope, but he wouls say anything to string his supporters along. This would not happen if there was a god to protect us, it is silly to believe that god could create us in his own image then hate us for being gay, or provide us with god given rights and forget a few things, like... slavery or women sufferage, must have slipped his fucking mind. I believe that such power to control things as a sentient being are impossible in this relm. i believe that we were created out of the universe and we are all parts of a larger whole, i really dont believe there is a spooky man in the sky. And by the by, im not arrogant, because i dont really know for sure if there is a god, i have just examined the facts and declared it unprobable. But, i do not know how we got here, i dont knwo how the universe came to be, i think that generaly accepted information should be heavily scrutinized so it can be accepted into our relm of thinking. I feel that it is far more arrogant for someone to say that they know better, that they know a god created this world, and no one else will tell them different; then for me to say that i do not believe in a man in the sky directing things. I have an open mind, ill be the first to accept god if there is difinative proof, but until then, i cant bring myself to believe in something that has been warped for personal gain a thousand times before.

i suppose i should tie this in to some message. I have always turned a blind eye to religion, and i shut it out, because i think such things hold our nation back. If you want to believe in religion, then please do not use it to gain somthing, do not use it as grounds to hate on gay people, use it as means to spread an idea of peace, Kcubez is a great example, he is accepting of my views, although they diametrically appose his, but the only mention of religion ive heard from his is when he made the effort to get 27,000 people to keep thoughts in mind for sami, which is great. cancer is a shit thing to deal with and its great that people are gracious enough to kepp sufferers of that illness in their hearts. But, people like Kcubez are few in number, more and more i have seen people use religion as a means of control, and pursuasion, and god loving political officials always get the benefit of the doubt over the athiest ones, even if they are hippocrites, any liars, that kind of stuff makes me sick.

Im saying that most religious people condemn me for something they have no idea at all about, which im pretty sure PEOPLE arent supposed to do. Judgment is supposed to be left up to god, not the fuckin hate-filled church goers. and if god cant accept me for the way he supposedy made me, then i dont want any part of him at all.

I'm not corrupt because of the way I was born.... It isnt a choice to be gay or not.
How about people stop judging people based on something a book written a long ass time ago said and actually know us. then maybe they wouldnt be such assholes and gays might not get killed for being gay. A fair god wouldn't let that shit matter. Im a fucking human being, and the overly religious talk to me like im a fuckin animal. Im SICK of being talked to by people like im sub-human because I have a girlfriend.

If he made us all, then he should recognize that it isnt a choice. If i could choose to be straigt, guess what, i still wouldnt. God wants us to be with the opposite sex. Well, every time I try it, i ended up getting hurt, and i don't deserve that shit. I have issues, but im a good person. Ive done some stupid shit in my life, but ive never done anything worth suffering forever for. I just wish that people would know me before they judge me. No matter how good of a person i am, im still going to rot in hell because of something uncontrollable... Screw that.

First off, let me apologize Sami if anything I have said came off as judgmental. I absolutely did not mean for it to. I don't judge you any more than I judge my father for being a drunk when I was young, or my sister for having an eating disorder, or myself for constantly lusting. I don't think any of those things are good and natural things to do but I also don't think it makes any of those people any less a person than anyone else. It is wrong that people are discriminated against for being gay. It is wrong for any person, church going or not, to tell you you are going to hell because you have a girlfriend.

Secondly, I should have clarified earlier, but I am not a supporter of religion in the common meaning of the word. I think religion is basically a bunch of people who use God for the same reasons. So I would not call myself religious because I do not feel I should or can use God's name to promote any sort of selfish ambitions. Instead I call myself a believer and a Christian, and while those carry their own stereotypes, I believe they more accurately portray what I try to be about. Because of this I must believe in the Bible, I must believe that its lessons and truths are as applicable today as they were 10000 years ago.

So I guess to Bane I would say I agree with you that religion is BS, people, and the government in this country have historically had a very convenient manner of forgetting the whole separation of church and state when they needed to make moral decisions. However I cannot say that bad things happening to good people means there is no God. Like I said I think God created us with the ability to make choices and very early on we started making the wrong ones, and those wrong choices caused us to lose our close connection with God in which our world involved no pain and sorrow. Why did God create us and then just allow us to fail miserably and lose that relationship? I don't know.

What I do know is this place we are living in today is depraved and sorrowful. We have epidemics, starvation, genocide, natural disasters, and countless other sources of misery. If I could not find hope in something that somewhere along the line down the road that these things would get better, that a life of pure happiness was possible, then I honestly do not know how I could continue to live in such a dark world. For me I find my hope in my God and in Christ. I am thoroughly sorry that other people who claim to also believe in Christ have hurt so many in so many ways, and I am sorry for the times where I fall short of the calling I know I have. But the bottom line is Christ does not compel us to have faith in one another, we are called to have faith in Him and Him alone. Everyone screws up, and unfortunately all to often people screw up in His name, but I hope that somehow people can find a way to ignore and look past the hypocrites who supposedly stand for something so wonderful.

Im not trying to judge anyone or change anyones minds, but I am trying to make people think about life and its realities. If you disagree with me thats our decision, as Sami said, we are all free to make our own choices.

and im fine with people making thier own choices. the people that use religion as a means to gain just cause for discriminating against people different from themselves are where religion gets ruined.

I know you weren't trying to offend me, and i hope that you are not closed-minded enough to think that i will rot and suffer in hell forever because I am gay.

Sorry if i came off as a bitch, im not feeling to great atm =/

hmm, the great thing about religion is that all of you are right.

religion is what you want it to be, god is what you want it to be.

there is no one to say it is right, or wrong. I dont berlieve in god, but if he exists, then he must want it that way, right? Same goes for everyone who hates him, believes in a different god than you, ect. If he does exist, he wants everyone to argue about it.

religion as a whole I believe is a sham. Like most things in the world, people corrupt everything and anything to profit. yes, it is a form of control. Isnt it a good form of control though? i mean, dont steal, dont kill people, dont be jealous, dont believe in another god. If another god says `kill other people` then, isnt it bad for us as a society to believe in that god?

whether he exists or not, and whether the trillions of dollars spent on religion every year throughout the world is from human corruption or not, he plays an important role in society and the creation of the world.

since mankind had the power to think, they have believed in gods and demons. Since long before we discovered fire, we believed that if we did something bad, an evil spirit would get revenge. this causes people to refrain from doing bad things. Maybe not all people, but enough.

Over tens of thousands of years (and in christian society, thousands of years) religion has changed and controled the way every human on this planet thinks. you can teach someone that 2-1=7 their entire life, and they will believe it with their entire heart, the same way people believe religion.

religion itself is most likely fake, no backing, just like american money. the power though is in the belief. I believe that people believing in a religion is a very good thing. I dont support any religion, or believe in any of it. I believe that the belief in a religion (though fake) is still much better for society than to have a bunch of cynics like myself roaming the streets.

unless all of the people that believe are judgmental people that treat others like shit for no reason like they do me. 0.o

sami just because the people you have encountered have been poor examples or reflections of the God they supposedly believe in, does not make that God wrong or bad, though I do regretfully acknowledge the overwhelming majority of 'christians' suck at being what they are supposed to be and usually do more harm than good. Christ was about loving and taking care of everyone not just the people who do and think what you want them to.

and no I don't think you are going to hell just because your gay. you deserve just as much love and caring as the next person, and your situation deserves just as much prayer on my behalf as any other persons.

i can't say that I agree with Glorn's assesment of God is what you make him. But that is because my faith in my God tells me otherwise. So in an ironic kind of way the very essence of his statement is the reason i disagree. I believe what I believe and I believe it to be right, but I am also not quite so arrogant to ignore the fact that if I grew up in the Middle East I could believe something totally different and be just as convinced I was right, so who am I to pretend I know everything better than everyone else??

Quote :

yes, it is a form of control. Isnt it a good form of control though? i mean, dont steal, dont kill people, dont be jealous, dont believe in another god. If another god says `kill other people` then, isnt it bad for us as a society to believe in that god?

That would be fine, promoting good behavior is great. But, lets face it, polititions have been throwing god around, Most of them do it for personal gain, i remember during the bush years, that not locing god meant you were not an american, that is a form of control which promotes obediance to a polotical party, and discourages asking questions i garentee that if the president did not campaign as a god fearing man, we would have taken a second glance at the raising of the terror levels around election time, as we as a country have never changed leaders during a time of war, and we were certainly more apt to stick with bush during times of terror. (i am reffering to the George Bush / John Kerry election.)

If you take a good look, you can realize that george bush was a criminal, he lied whenever it suited his own purposes, but he was dragging along many religious people like it was nothing

That is the power of religion, that is how it is used to control people, the government doesnt give a shit about the ten commandmants

I wouldn't go so far as to say Bush or any other gov't body is using religion to abuse power, i thnk they do just fine abusing it just because they are the gov't. I also can't imagine the pressure that goes along with being the most powerful man in the world but thats a whole nother thread...

a different thread, and a dumb one at that =p
politics are LAME =p

www.thewillpower.org

my view on politics

Too much text. I just live life and do on to others as I like them to do on to me. No need to write memoirs there is already plenty of them. You got books that ridicule religion and books that say follow them. Almost all of them have the same general idea, Dont kill , Dont Steal etc. Beleif is a very dangerous thing you have many who are willing to kill or die over such things. When it comes to religion its better to have a general idea then a strong beleif. My biggest pet peeve on religion is those who feel the need to use Jesus Christ or God or whoever in a conversation. Somebody once wrote me an email and I counted they use God 53 times and the conversation had nothing to do with God. I dont like people who use religous names to strengthen their conversation or arguements. Name dropping doesnt impress me.

lol glorn that might be the most unbelievably unnecessary thing EVER

lmao, i should forum ban myself, but it is THAT good!

wow glorn... im disturbed... thanks for that disgusting vid there.... 0.o

now you`re a man, MAN MAN MAN

but..... im not 0.o

I'm a huge believer in religion, especially Christianity. I believe that everybody makes mistakes sometimes, even god, hence the first 5 mass extinctions, but now I can find relief in the fact that he's finally created the perfect animal...And that animal is of course, the raccoon. The second most perfect animal though is a human, so if another mass extinction happens, we're totally in god's book of animals that shouldn't go extinct. And now that I've proven to everyone of the existence of god, I can finally get a good nights sleep. God dammit, I sure do love religion, and I'm sure glad God invented it!

Amen.