Why Epic Won/Lost in Tourny

I'm just going off of memory and what my interpretation of the matches were. I don't mean to beat the dog to death of these, but I think for the up and comers its important to see step by step of why people won and lost. As I will show you can counter the living shit out of your opponent, but if you do not execute this correctly you lose. Having a flawless build is one thing, being able to play the flawless build under different situations is a completely different situation. And is something that is much harder to learn, but probably the most important aspect of this game. That also goes for Charge, Yeti, Piss and Tuus, I don't mean to glorify myself or belittle you guys, I'm simply trying to teach others from our mistakes and our strengths. If you have comments/corrections/additions let me know.
------------------------------------------------------
Game 1 vs Charge

My Build:

Storm Panda
Death Strike
Mana Vortex
Acid Rain
Ele Mastery

Charges Build

Frost Demon
Soulburn
Something
Skeletons
Puppet?

Why I Lost and Later Won:

First and foremost, nice guy's finish last. After I one shotted his skeles with vortex, Charge forfeit. I convinced him not to and continue playing. NEVER do this in a tournament. If you win by them forfeiting, take it and leave. This instilled a false sense of security in which I got lazy. I took for granted Charge's ability with skele's and at that time did not realize he had soulburn. Because I took his ability with summons for granted, I did not play aggressively, I became laid back, as because of him losing hope I got cocky and thought I had it in the bag. Arrogance/Confidence is a vital asset; Hubris will be your downfall.

The long and short, my vortex didn't mean shit as Skele's were his means to farm and just bonus for the duel. The point I took for granted. He didn't need to use the skele's to beat me, they were just a means to getting to what he needed. The soulburn countered the rest of my build, the huge damage and critical strikes didn't mean anything while under the sickening reduc of soulburn. To conclude, my hubris combined with Charge countering my specialties made me lose. Even though I won after the first duel. If you win a tournament by forfeit, acceot it. No matter if their your good friend, worst enemy or what have you. This was the biggest lesson I learned. If you want to keep playing, agree to accept the forfeit, and then continue to play. Luckily, Charge decided to reinstill his forfeit, and I was later granted the win...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Epic vs Pissonmyhands

Game One:

Epic:
Priest
Thunderclap
Cripple
Mana Burn
Starfall

Piss:
Farseer
Shockwave
Vortex
Something
Foul Earth

Why I Won / Why Piss Lost.

I) Much like my game with charge, Piss overlooked the bonus abilities I had because he had Vortex. Sure he burnt all of my mana, But being intel, I could still regen enough to keep cripple on him constantly and still toss a thunderclap, which drastically reduced his attack speed. These two skills rendered his auto attack nearly useless.

II) Because he had vortex, I knew I had to play aggressively. If I allowed the game to carry onto late game I would lose, as a heavily mana intensive build simply will not do well against constant Vortex. I stole his creeps/ganked him etc. WW + Thunderclap then Starfall while they are in the middle spawn just mangles, they don't see you run up you hit TC they cant move worth shit than proceed to starfall, they are caught within your ult, already weak from the creeps they inevitably die. Even just thunderclap is a brilliant skill for creep ganking. You wait till their weakish and their creeps are red, hit TC the creeps die and they cant run away from you. Because I played extremely aggressive this game Piss fell drastically behind; I also got a few bonus kills and shortened his chance up drastically to catch up to me.

III) Piss chose the wrong ult. Foul Earth is A) not a 1v1 skill, B) Foul Earth is not a early game skill for sure, and not much for mid game (In comparison with Tidal/Starfall/Wrath/Storm). Pure and simple because its a % skill, its beautiful when they have 20,000 hp. But it does not do as much damage as the other ults till they have a massive amount of Health. If you would like to see evidence, ask Piss for the snippet of when me and him simultaneously casted Starfall and Foul Earth on each other, I dropped to 50-60%, he dropped to 15-30%.

Conclusion, just because you are heavily countered do not EVER forfeit. As we saw with Me vs Charge and Me vs Piss you can still overcome your ability. Their hubris will make them not play as hard as you. Also, if you can win outside of the duels/slow them down or anything else you can pul ahead and take them by surprise. You take them by surprise, they panic, they panic they make mistakes. If they make mistakes you rip these apart and come out ahead. If you find yourself in a bad position, think outside the box and figure out any possibility you can possibly take to win. You may lose every duel, but if you can get 8 ganks before the 8th duel, well you win. A win is a win, not matter how you got there.

Game 2

Epic
Storm Panda
Dragon Punch
Divine Shield
Acid Rain
Death Orb

Piss
Farmer
Windwalk
AMS'
Something
- Cant remember the particulars of Piss's build my apologies, maybe he will be kind enough to post it.

Why Epic Won and Piss Lost:

I) My build is sexy. Haha, it effectively creates a damage immunity while pumping out extraordinary damage. How do I do this? Dragon Punch has huge damage and a decent stun; this cuts down an AMS hugely. Before the DP stun wears out I toss the Death Orb, this finishes the AMS and does hefty damage to the target. It also carries a long stun with it. As soon as this stun finishes, I pop divine shield. This gives me 3+ seconds for DP to cool down again, then I hit them with another DP. The clever opponents will recast AMS directly after a DP, some will not. Piss only did every so often. Once the next DP came up, the AMS broke and the additional damage carried onto him. A build like this is what we refer to as Synergistic. That is, all the spells have a common goal, and work together. The deathorb + dp stun locks and provide enough damage to bust throug AMS Spell or Pots. The divine shield gives me spare time for cooldown. This is not technically a "stunlock" but it is what I call a damage lock. That is, it functions much the same as a stunlock, in that for a exended period of time they can not do any damage.

II) Piss lost this because he relied on the wrong spell. He leveled WW when he should have focussed on AMS. I would have had a much harder time hurting him. He relied on this because he did not know the dragonpunch skill. He did not realize the massive damage and stun this gets mid-later game. He also did not forsee the massive damage lock I would instill on him. Foresight into your opponents build is crucial, knowing their power curve as well as your own and being able to compare and see where your going to overcome and were they wil fail/overcome is an important concept from being good or decent to being pro. Know every skill, even if you don't use it. Why? If your opponent surprises you with a skill that you don't know then you won't know what to do.

III) I knew with his whirlwind and AMS, that ganking was not a possibility, so I played defensively. IMO this was correct, if you know you won't get the kill, and you can't wipe their spawns fast enough, farm bot. Piss on the other hand, played defensively when he should have played offesively. My build is weak early game, it can be easily destroyed, however late game it is a complete beast. Piss either didn't realize this, overlooked this, or for whatever reason did not take advantage of this. He let me grow to a point were I was unstoppable.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Epic vs Tuus

Epic
Farseer
Flamestrike
Divine Shield
Slow Poison
Wrath of Hell

Tuus
Necro
Chain Lightning
Vortex
Slow Poison
Avatar

I) This was the second game, I ran roughly the same build in the second and Tuus ended up forfeiting it because he had lost hope half way through. I won't bother explaining the first game as I can remember Tuus's build, and I won this for the same reasons as that. Tuus possibly could have made a come back, but he, in my opinion did not look outside the box and try and figure out how to beat me. Nonetheless the 2nd game as follows:

II) Tuus was predictable. Actually I made this build shortly before this game after talking to some of the people he previously played. This was his go to win build, I was expecting this first game hence why I ran roughly the same build twice. Predictability means your opponent can formulate a counter and strategy on how to roll you. This is exactly what I did. I picked Slow Poison to equal out what I was going to lose, if you can't counter it, equal it. This will be something that will haunt me with Yeti.
I knew ahead of time it was likely he would get avatar. Many farm Ult's damage will go through Avatar. Tuus going intel would have gotten Cloak of the Hidden early game, giving him a WW. WW means starfall has no effect in duels. Tidal Rush doesn't pick up momentum till mid game. I like to end games, tournament matches in particular as fast as possible. Wrath of Hell is a deadly early - mid game skill. It can SOMEWHAT stunlock your opponent taking out their escape or their ability to interrupt your channel. It also does massive damage early game. One duel was shots between Flamestrike and Wrath. Him being slow poisoned also helped me in that he had trouble avoiding the initial cast. I chose flame strike because I knew I would have to massively outfarm him to ensure an early victory. Flamestrike is an extremely powerful spell, but is easily countered by mana burns.falres etc and is also mana intensive. But because I knew what Tuus was going to do most likely, I took the chance.

III) Playing aggressively, like in the Piss matches were a crucial part in my success. Tuus got 2 ganks off me stealing his spawns, but at the same time it was a calculated risk in which I knew I would still pull ahead. How? Because I was a couple levels higher, I took away his easy creeps and replaced them with ones MUCH harder. This slowed his creeping down to a halt, while I retained all my easy creeps because I was feeding off of his. This is a difficult thing to calculate and a strategy that many will disagree with. If you live by the Sword, You'll die by the sword. Make sure before doing this you know the risks, and if you can overcome them if your plan fails. My plan half-failed twice, I got all his creeps, but he got me.

IV) In my opinion, Tuus lost and I won these because of panic, disbelief in himself and predictability. He played the same way he does in all his games, with the same style. I used my knowledge of this against him. Lessons to learn from this? Do not play the same styles all the time, diversify everything. In your build library you want all sorts of different extremes. You want to ensure that your opponent will never know what your going to do. Whether that is having "secret" builds stashed away, doing what I do and using the same hero for many VERY DIFFERENT builds, or whatever other tactic you need. Furthermore, do not ever lose hope that you can win. I've lead games 7-0, then ended up losing 7-8 simply because of my laziness, lack of attention, or being outplayed; I've also held fast and came back from 0-7. Most of the time, the more your opponent is winning by the easier he will be to make a comeback. You just have to find the opportunity.
--------------------------

Ill get me and Yeti's games done tonight. They were extraordinarily close games and probably some of the best games I've played to date. That being said I want to talk to him and go over them a bit because execution wise I believe they have the most to offer, because however there was mistakes on both sides, neither of them really were really our downfalls.

why epic lost to yeti:
Glorn taught yeti how to play STR
no one else knows how to play STR
you cant counter a fast leveling STR
GG


right, right?

But anyway, this is a good post; though I doubt anyone by myself and piss will read the whole thing.

I love this post~! <3 The only thing I dont like is your view on our match and you opinions on the mindset of every player. granted there are somethings that are correct but unless you talk to

u beat me because of the mistakes I made. -_- granted you played well I wont deny it, but you won that game on my error for the most part. I have our replays and I'll cast them eventually but I'll definitely go over why and when i screwed up. If you watch the games (assuming you have them) you'll look at me and roflstomp then wonder why i'm a grunt XD


anyway this is a thread that a lot of people should read. for important matches like these I think people should do this a lot more. for all of you out there who wanna know why a player gets very good very fast, this is it. a player who can look at a match, particularly his own and pick out his strengths and faults is a player who can learn. I personally suggest that we start a section of the forum where players can do this. format should be:

Post replay
Post explanation
Open critique for those who watch

Sorry about the really bad post but I am currently having a great thanksgiving w/ friends and family so I'm not thinking this one through completely. just posting a quick response isall

+1 irl win point for epic

game1 i beat epic because epic made shield and i made mask
game2 epic took chance toming str i took chance trying to make boots his panned out better
game3 unholyaura ftw

This post just goes to show you hind sight is 20/20. We can all say what we would of, should of, and could of done, but will you have the for sight to make that decision when it counts?

ya thats not necessarily true Careful. I could probably ask 80-90% of all pubs I play to do the same thing about the game we play together and 60% of the would be "ofmg u just hack go die in a fire", 30% would make some kind of lame excuse like too little experience or bad creep spawns, and 10% maybe would be able to successfully analyze the situation and give an answer of this clarity and understanding. This is an exercise of thought for both the player who gives it and the open forum to which he puts his thoughts up for scrutiny. -_-

Neway In addition epic I tried playing agressively and fuck up really badly... if u didnt see i canceled my farming ultimate twice. in the first duel and the middle spawn of the second round of farming. Those were probably the two most important casts and cost me the game :/ to be honest i felt terrible afterwards and punched a wall XD


I dig the stunpanda though Also another thing players should take out of this is the lesson of playing out the entire game even if you are getting beat. you will always get something out of it

I really wish i could get all the replays from all the matches. i enjoy watching matches and to be honest.... i bought a notebook today JUST for watching matches with great players. seeing what they do and how they do it. I think epic deserved a win in the tournament. he is a fantastic player... NOT DOWNTALKING OTHER PLAYERS. i admire yeti. and piss. and everyone else that was it. But epic has always been able to counter extraordinarily well. And i hope i get this ability. I aspire to be like epic. And Yeti. And Glorn. And everyone else pretty much. good job guys. you're great

The public players you speak of don't watch their own replays. The others are looking for the false sense of being pro and generally copy the guy who beat them badly. So long as their build beats other public players 70% of the time they will generally keep playing it over and over again. Ever wonder why you see so many static/blood, or silent/banish ,and farmer/restore builds? It's because of that reason. If you beat the builds I speak of in their mind it is so good that the only explanation is you are cheating. However this is all off topic and I know my post before sounds cynical, but it poses a good question do you learn from this, or is this all a wasted effort to be forgotten later as you repeat from your last mistakes? Only time will tell.

Haha, theyre all awesome players! Ive played with most of them, against and with, and theyve helped me and taught me a lot about this game. I think not forfeiting and not giving up even if ure losing is an excellent point, as was pointed out before. I remember a game where I was losing like 7-2 and the other guy got overconfident and I ended up winning 7-8. In duels he dominated me, but I ended up ganking on the field, taking his creeps and killing him. Watching replays is a big must too. I plyed a game with HSTVC(i think thats his name) where I went a terrap build and he beat me, but we talked a lot after the game was over, which actually improved my gaming a lot. So thnx a lot H!

And Piss has a good point. I rock pubs(and im not even that good) with my terrap build and theyve accused of cheating or saying terrap is bs nad should be removed from the game and etc... I remember ONE person from all those games that actually wouldnt give up and ended up beating me late game. Everyone else had left. He had mana shield, and he beat me early game, then mid game I kiled him like 7 times, then late game he ended up killing me more and winning game, but it was really close. He won by like 2 kills or something. That is the kind of game I like to play and that I hope I see more of, but people just give up too easily.

well... there are some games where its just a bad situation. I played oh..... 5-6 games with glorn last night. in one of them.... he was lvl 21 i was lvl 7. I had two items. Cloak of the hidden and boots of speed. it was not a game worth playing anymore. there wasnt anything that i could have learned at that point because i was just so frustrated all i could do was fail at farming. it was a bad situation i hope i will never get stuck in again. ill do my best never to get stuck in that again........

<feels bad for stomp> but we all had to go through it to get as good as we are. If your plan fails one thing you should try is to just "close the gap" of levels between you and glorn. dont even try and win the duels, just close the level gap the best you can. if you can try and keep even pace w/ him you will be more of a threat then just quiting and trying another game. the more you are exposed to the regular asswhoping that glorn hands out, the better you'll be able to respond to it.

that was an especially bad game piss. he was only creeping on my side. i tried to go to his side but hed gank me before i made it. it was physically impossible for me to creep.

Quote :

I love this post~! <3 The only thing I dont like is your view on our match and you opinions on the mindset of every player. granted there are somethings that are correct but unless you talk to

And thats why I wrote the little disclaimer at the start asking anyone that had a different view to correct me, as I said this is just from what I saw and interpreted in our games. If I am wrong on parts, lets have a chat and we'll fix it!

Quote :

This post just goes to show you hind sight is 20/20. We can all say what we would of, should of, and could of done, but will you have the for sight to make that decision when it counts?

Your right hindsight is 20/20. Thats why I am attempting to show people through this. Because if they have to make decisions they don't have to learn from their own mistakes they can read about my mistakes, or the people I have played so if they find themselves in similar situations they know what to do. As I said at the start, this isn't about making myself look bad/good or anyone else the same. This is to teach people from our 20/20 hindsight. If we can provide the insight it may carry over into their games, thats part of my job as a Shaman, is to help provide insight so peoples games improve.

Quote :

I really wish i could get all the replays from all the matches. i enjoy watching matches and to be honest....

As Piss for the replays I sent all of them except for me and Yeti's, because I was so hyped on our games I forgot to save them. But I believe Yeti may have them or hopefully have sent them to Piss. Clips will be up on the Youtube Channel when piss ahs time, and if you can give me your email, or Piss your E-Mail I'm sure we'll be happy enough to send them along if your interested in watching them.

Quote :

I think epic deserved a win in the tournament. he is a fantastic player... NOT DOWNTALKING OTHER PLAYERS

Haha why thank you, but Yeti deserves the win he got. He plain and simply outplayed me, and well skill wise I personally believe me and him are equal. Every time we play a game its the best games I play. And I down talk people sometimes, actually I was beaking Tuus in our match. Trash talking is part of the game, especially serious matches haha.

Quote :

If you beat the builds I speak of in their mind it is so good that the only explanation is you are cheating. However this is all off topic and I know my post before sounds cynical, but it poses a good question do you learn from this, or is this all a wasted effort to be forgotten later as you repeat from your last mistakes? Only time will tell.

People Do heavily learn from things like these. You want examples? Me, Yeti, Tuus, Piss, Charge and HLWG were trained through methods like this. 9/10 people dont take anything from this, well that's to bad. But I will guarantee there will be at least one person who will read through this, perhaps watch the replays and the knowledge will carry over and their games will improve. And well, if 45 minutes of my time contributed to us bringing up another very skilled player than I consider it a success.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

And Stomp, I'll help you out with some training when I get home tonight. Glorn's great at training, except for Greenhorns (no offence Sean haha) But ya, I'm not to sure if you have the experience yet to completely take in how Glorn trains, but if your around, we'll go through a bunch of theory in chat tonight and work on some builds and show you foundations. Once you have these things, Glorn's training will become much more useful, as after he kicks your ass you'll be able to see where you went wrong

ill put my email on my profile after im done with dinner
ill be on pretty much all night. and i think that if anyone deserved to be in the finals it was yeti and yourself. glorns just...... it wouldnt be fair since he made the game. sorry glorn but yeah... i like getting advice... and i could really use some right now... im starting to just get frustrated when i play with glorn. we've played 10+ matches and ive yet to kill him. ive gotten within 100 hp..... oh... wait.... REIN IN A BOTTLEEE. -.-

Is it me or do the newbies kiss a lot of butt? No offense dude Sounded like a great couple of matches. Well maybe I dont know or care didnt bother to read it text too long and not enough pictures to grab my attention.

Its true... after a few weeks, they fall into line and start picking on the "good" players. Prolly a subconscious fear of rejection from a community they are attempting to join.

but anyway stomp.. you'll learn eventually that up until the first few duels is what sets the base for the rest of the game. On rare occasion, other things may happen; but if you play your first few duels flawlessly; it will be hard for anyone to beat you. So; really, by winning in 15 minutes per game; you are slowly learning early-game survivability. Once you can overcome that, then the whole rest of the game opens up to you. If you can straggle along, being underleveled, and still survive to mid game; then you might make it. That isnt really bad. Losing early game against an "all game" build is what will get yeh.

Quote :

Well maybe I dont know or care didnt bother to read it text too long and not enough pictures to grab my attention.

that's so sad...

Charges Build

Frost Demon
Soulburn
Something
Skeletons
Puppet?


the only thing true about this is skele's and soul burn XD... i don't think you would have won even if you went full otu because i would have out farmed you even if you spammed vortex


it was

naga witch

soulburn
slow
skeles
puppet

one of the key things you ddint' notice was i was secretly leveling slow early hence i didn't use soul burn, and combined with slow, the kiting and my mana regen could have played a role if absolutely necessary in winning

also glorn if u play ur first duel like shit, you set the stage for a toilet full of liquid crap. so anyway... can we start a section where people can do this :?