Crits and Bashes

Subject: Crits and Bashes Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:24 am

Critical strikes

When calculating damage from critical strikes, if two occur at once, only the last critical strike skill or item you acquired will have effect.
Note that a skill counts as acquired when level 1 of it is learned.
An item counts as acquired every time its picked up.

Bashes

When calculating bashes, the result depends on whether you're a melee hero or a ranged hero.
It is true for both however, that if you bash an already stunned unit, the greater of the remaining stun time and the bash time of your bash will be used. That means that a bash can never shorten the amount of time a unit is stunned.

Melee heroes' bashes stack fully, so if two or more bashes occur at once, the longest stun time from all the bashes will be used (bashes never shorten stun time) and all the different bash damages will be added .
The damage is reduced by spell resistance, and eliminated by magic immunity.
The damage is a separate source and therefore does not count to lifesteal and does not interact with critical s trikes in any way.
Additionally, melee units' bashes have a clear advantage:
The stun part of the bash is NOT eliminated by magic immunity and therefore you can even stun magic immune units, though they will get no additional damage from the bash.

Ranged however it's the other way round. The bash damage is added directly to the normal attack damage and therefore it behaves just like any normal damage increase (it's reduced by armour value and armour type, it grants lifesteal, etc.). The stun part is blockable by magic immunity. However, a ranged hero can not land multiple bashes in one hit - a proc of a later acquired bash will always completely overwrite an earlier achieved one.

Bash and crit interactions

On melee heroes crits and bashes will have no interaction with each other (they are independent of each other). This means the critical multiplier will never multiply the bash damage.

On ranged heroes every crit achieved after a bash or another crit will completely negate the earlier achieved crits and bashes on its procing. In essence, this means that if you proc multiple crits and bashes on a ranged hero, the last acquired crit that triggered will count as the only critical, and if any of the bashes that procced were acquired after the critical was acquired (not procced), the last of those bashes would add damage (which isn't multiplied) as well as the stun.

Multiple bashes or criticals stack diminishingly. You can get the exact chance with the following formula:
Chance = 1 - ( 1 - A ) * ( 1 - B ) * ( 1 - C ) All critical strikes and bashes are rounded to the nearest 5%.

Subject: Re: Crits and Bashes Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:25 am

Is it true, as well, that ranged critical strike damage counts as spell damage (therefore being reduced by spell resistance and negated by spell immunity)? This is something I was fairly sure of but thought I'd clarify here.

Subject: Re: Crits and Bashes Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:32 am

it is considered a spell, but not spell damage, if that makes sense.

Like, barrage is a spell, but physical damage. Fan of knives is physical damage, volcano is physical damage.

It is considered a spell (doesnt work on spell immune) but the damage is still physical.

Just think back, even been hit for a 10k DS and not have magic reduction? If that was the case, you would have lost 8000 HP in that single hit. Hell, Ive been crit for 40k before, and it only did like 2k damage :p

Master Spammer Posts : 451 Join date : 2009-08-04

Hey I figured I bump this because well this is where I got my knowledge from. Maybe we should make topics like these stickies so they dont fall in the abyss.....

Subject: Re: Crits and Bashes Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:36 am

Okay this is something I have been trying to get straight all night.If you have multiple Crits say Death strike 5% for 6.0 and Immortal's ring another 60% chance for 2.5 then Crit mastery which is another 100% for 1.36.Saying you Finished leveling crit mastery first then got Ring then finished leveling Death strike.If you did 100 damage a second in 100 seconds

Ring =60x2.5x100 =15,000
Death strike =5x6x100 =3,000
Crit Mastery =35x1.36x100 =4,760
without crit =100x100 =10,000
With total Crit =22,760

That's a 127.6% damage increase over 100 seconds.But dose it work?That's what I would like to know?

Subject: Re: Crits and Bashes Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:40 pm

not gonna lie... where is that math from? 60X damage? damage a second? Damage a second? What does damage per second have to do with it? You mean attacks per second dealing 100 damage? I will assume that is what you were aiming for (which is about 200 agility)

Also, if you read the first post 1 whole time, or even the first line more than once... you would know how crits stack.

"When calculating damage from critical strikes, if two occur at once, only the last critical strike skill or item you acquired will have effect.
Note that a skill counts as acquired when level 1 of it is learned.
An item counts as acquired every time its picked up."

The first time you put a point into a skill, it becomes acquired. If you wait until after you put a point into your ult to put a point into DS... Then DS over-rides your crit master. If you level Crit Master after a point has been put into DS, then DS will never hit.

Also, because 2 crits cannot happen at once; you cannot add the damage from 2 crits on the same attack...

If ring is a 60% crit, and you got it last; then 40% of your other crits are not happening!

Assuming you leveled your skills the right way; and still assuming ring is 60% (rather than 30%) And also assuming your math above is completely wrong, because we should assume the fire line of the topic post is correct....

1.36X crit for 100% should be your base... That is a 36% increase in damage (alone)
6.5X crit for 5% (because DS is actually 6.5%) That is a 27.5% increase in damage (alone)
2.5X crit for 60% is your imaginary number... That is a 90% increase in damage (alone)

The ring being your last obtained item will deal its full crit damage. That is, 90% increased damage as your base. However, this affects the chance of your death strike hitting! It will only deal 40% of its damage! 40% of 27.5 is... 11%... DS would be lowered to an 11% damage increase... Now you have 101% bonus damage... Though, if your 40% free space, 5% is now gone to DS crits... 35% remains. So, your 36% damage increase is lowered to 35% of its value... 12.6% increased damage. Bringing your grand total to 113.6% damage output...

Assuming you attack 1 time every second, 100 damage a hit, for 100 seconds... it doesnt matter at all... Pick a damage output, add 113.6% to it, and BAM, ur golden....

However, on 10,000 damage, that would be 11360 bonus damage.... so, your numbers are off by more than 2X....

Subject: Re: Crits and Bashes Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:13 pm

I'm sorry I was a bit drunk when i posted this 5-7 shots of jack so I was a bit out of it.I was trying to out crits over 100 seconds so I could see how they would interact.I didn't know that Immortals Ring would completely cancel Crit mastery.That and my math was off considerably I don't know where the fuck i got 60% ring is 30% chance to hit for 2.5.So sorry for the drunk posting.Thanks for the info though.

Unranked Posts : 6 Join date : 2010-01-04

Dont stack crits its just foolish. If you must stack them choose ones that have a lower chance of occuring they have less diminished capacities.

You would get a far better damage yeild from getting only 1 crit source and going for high + damage then you would from the etremely noob thinking of I must crit every hit. Crits are overrated in that sense.

Subject: Re: Crits and Bashes Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:35 pm

Agreed, if you REALLY wanna crit stack, get DS, and ice talons. Ice and light talons are 10% to crit for 3X, so there is a low chance the crits will over-ride each other.

Also, everyone should really learn math, and realize that the ultimate swords are better than the ultimate axes... everyone loves to see +1800 damage; however, if your damage is 1800, a sword is dealing more damage (from crits) And lets face it; by the time you get an ultimate weapon, you should have around 1800 damage (including your weapon) so a sword is much better; because as the game goes on, your damage will increase.

Master Spammer Posts : 451 Join date : 2009-08-04

You know thanks for posting the link to this wrath um I read neura's spell resistance on the other site I think that would show how to add the % together because they dont stack directly. Sorry not too good any mechanics I say or know is from other peoples works Im not that smart.

I post an edit paste of Spell Resistance. Anyone know whatever happen to neura?

Subject: Re: Crits and Bashes Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:09 am

neura started raging against the idea of clans, and belonging to groups, and yay anarchy, and such of that nature... i believe no one has seen him since...

puberty is a scary time...

Subject: Re: Crits and Bashes Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:47 pm

I think spell res and spell damage reduction is definitely a must for my general info post it was made even more essential in 3.1 because of silent night sadly it is so easy to counter.(mana flare,bk mail,avatar)

Unranked Posts : 10 Join date : 2010-08-29 Age : 32

If you already have a crit as an ability or from another item, wouldn't the +1800 be better?

Subject: Re: Crits and Bashes Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:09 pm

thats why axes are popular if you have combat mastery or crit master or someother kind of crit already, an axe is generally a better choice for damage hell even immortals glove you wanna grab an axe